Curse

Gargle Blaster · Jun 30, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

blackout and plauge touch are not attack skills -- but yes blind should work on them too.

Caleb · Jun 30, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

My opinion is that no skill nerf is needed, competitors just need to utilize better counters.

Gargle Blaster · Jun 30, 2006, 03:19 PM // 15:19

there is no counter to touch skills... only thing you can do is slow them down and speed yourself up.

lyra_song · Jun 30, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I dont think that Touchers are overpowered (read my past posts) but im sick of all this arguing. So how about a proposal to change something to satisfy some people?
-----------------------
Proposal
Add a new category of skills called Lifestealing. Vampiric weapons would be categorized as Lifestealing as well. This way we can differentiate from Physical, Elemental, and Lifesteal damage.

Affected Skills
Vampiric Bite: Lifestealing Skill
Vampiric Touch: Lifestealing Skill

Lifestealing skills cost the same to a Necromancer (nothing changes for necros, they are unaffected) but only receive HALF the affect of expertise (Just like how Ritualist spirits give only half the affect of Soul Reaping).

Vampiric Gaze: Lifestealing Spell

Still a spell, still backfired, etc.

Desired Effect
This would tone down the power of the touch ranger skills without competely nerfing them to death.

At 16 Expertise, a ranger can use Vampiric Touch for the cost of 10 energy (i think...)

------------------
so? can we behave now and not fight? (except in RA, TA, GvG, HA, and AB)

I'm quoting myself because no one seems to have read my post, and i feel that its very relevant to the current direction of the thread. -.-

Caleb · Jun 30, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

there is no counter to touch skills... only thing you can do is slow them down and speed yourself up.

Your own post opens up at least 20 counters to touch skills.

Slow them down (at least 10 skills)

Speed yourself up (at least 10 skills)

Not to mention the other counters already posted in this thread.

quanzong · Jun 30, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

ya I think touch rangers should be nerfed, why use a ranger for 50%+ necromancer skills? That is wrong, if you want to use 50% of a class skills, then be that class at least!

Chicken Ftw · Jun 30, 2006, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by quanzong

ya I think touch rangers should be nerfed, why use a ranger for 50%+ necromancer skills? That is wrong, if you want to use 50% of a class skills, then be that class at least!

50%+? Bite, Touch, OoB. 3/8 does not equal 50%+. Also, it's called synergy. If it's removed, there will be no reason to have a second profession. If Anet nerfs touch rangers, I'm done with GW. Why? Because they'll have nerfed a build just because people won't use the counters available. "I don't wanna take a counter just to touch rangers." Snares are anti-melee and anti-kiter as well. They're NOT just anti-toucher. The fact that this and the other topics are still going just shows that people refuse to read and use the counters listed, in which case, we can't help you. Hey, while you're doing useless things, go stand next to that warrior while you're on your necro, he'll thank you for it with an Eviscerate, and you can come here and cry for a warrior nerf. Sadly, some people will listen and agree. <_<

Gargle Blaster · Jun 30, 2006, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caleb The Pontiff

Your own post opens up at least 20 counters to touch skills.

Slow them down (at least 10 skills)

Speed yourself up (at least 10 skills)

Not to mention the other counters already posted in this thread.

lets think about this...

let say we got an ele casting a fire spell, or a warrior swinging at you, or ranger using a bow... you get the idea...

there are LOTS of counters... not only can you interupt but you also get damage reduction... in the form of wards, armors, stances, mantras, ...

how many damage reduction skills are there for touch rangers?

i dont mind running a little but, there is a line that was crossed with the addition of the dupe skills.

killer toast · Jun 30, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

they arent that strong they win in ra and ta but in gvgs and ha they are easily outhealed unless you decide to try and tank that damage like a idiot in which case you deserve to die -.- touch rangers=ftl

Ricebox · Jun 30, 2006, 04:02 PM // 16:02

bottom line is EVERYTHING HAS A COUNTER! so yeah, there is really no need to nerf it!

Those people who keep crying for touch rangers to get nerfed are a bunch of lazy people who are too lazy to think of a way to counter such builds!

Minus Sign · Jun 30, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

I've read your post lyra_song. Doubling the skills cost in a mana pool of 35 regularly and only 3 pips of regen. 5 attacks (with OoB and regen calculated for) and you're out of juice. How do you consider that anything less than a massive nerf of the build. That wouldn't be a light nerf, it would DESTROY touch rangers.

On the attack skill issue. Making a touching skill that "does damage" react to conditions like an attack skill will have far more reaching consequences than people understand once the balancing scales are applied to this idea. Example:

Shove: Elite skill. Damage and KD.
Shock: Skill: KD+dmg w/armor penetration

Neither react to blind atm. Both work through evade and block. Both are staples of Knockdown PvP warriors.

So for the last time (hopefully) on "dmg touches should be attacks" issue:

/NOTSIGNEDEVER TO NERF MY W/E!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

let say we got an ele casting a fire spell

lets say she's casting an Earth spell. Lets even call it Obsidian Flame

Quote:

, or a warrior swinging at you

with Warrior's Cunning stance

Quote:

or ranger using a bow...

to fire Called Shot or Crip shot?

Quote:

you get the idea...

I'd like to think I'm starting to...

Quote:

there are LOTS of counters... not only can you interupt

touch skills are 3/4 seconds, bring a mesmer, use a shortbow, knock them down!

Quote:

but you also get damage reduction... in the form of wards, armors, stances, mantras... ...

all the same, block, evade or up armor. Not snare, Edenial, degen, distracting shot and interupts, Distortion (ANTI-SPAM!)...

Quote:

how many damage reduction skills are there for touch rangers?

The real complaint about touch rangers. And the reason why Obsidian spikes kill you so often. And Crystal Wave, etc. I'm sorry I don't know exactly how many slow skills, interupts, knockdowns, degen hexes, anti-spams, etc etc etc etc exist in this game accross all 8 proffessions. But, as I and others have said and shown time and again throughout this thread and others like it, there exist several for each proffession. Perhaps someone here would like to count them all out for us?

Quote:

i dont mind running a little

you must. The only people with reason to complain are those who don't kite.

Quote:

but, there is a line that was crossed with the addition of the dupe skills.

Then step over with the rest of us who bought Factions and adapted. Join the dark side; you'll like it over here.

quanzong · Jun 30, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Sorry I never played a ranger, but I have faced a touch ranger, and I feel like they are cheating agaisnt me, because if something owns a warrior in a 1-1 combat, using melee type skills (have to touch your opponent), and isnt a assassin, or warrior, I consider cheaters. Because if something owns a warrior or assassin in melee, then THEY SHOULD delete the warriors and assassins, since they are worthless agaist a ranger, with cheating skills. All they do is spam same skills over and over with 100% chance win against a warrior who doesnt expect a ranger to have cheap touch necromancer skills. Thats like fighting a mob over and over and always getting gold drop (which is like beating someone up in PvP), and in PvE that is considered cheating.

killer toast · Jun 30, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

ummm what type of warrior or assassin are you using to that gets beat by a touchranger? they die fast since they have garbage armor unless they have a monk but thats when you use TEAMWORK

leeroy jenkins=ftl what does getting gold drops have to do with getting pwned lol i like gold drops i dont like getting pwned -.-

quanzong · Jun 30, 2006, 04:42 PM // 16:42

I have a good skill set, and 15K gladiator isnt garbage. I almost beat touch ranger but they get health regain health so fast because they spam that vampric touch and other health stealing skills. In Alliance battle when you die, 60% chance your going to go alone since 65% of people are fighting instead of capping, and either a warrior comes to challenge me 1-1, or a touch ranger, sometimes another class. Alliance is very fun I think, but a lot of 1-1s appear in em, I'm sure there are at least 4 1-1s that happened in every alliance battle, whether or not your in one of them. And thats where those Touch Rangers, start spamming there cheat codes.

lyra_song · Jun 30, 2006, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

I've read your post lyra_song. Doubling the skills cost in a mana pool of 35 regularly and only 3 pips of regen. 5 attacks (with OoB and regen calculated for) and you're out of juice. How do you consider that anything less than a massive nerf of the build. That wouldn't be a light nerf, it would DESTROY touch rangers.

How about a 75% increase as supposed to 100%?? instead of 10 or 5, it would be a middle number...say 7-8.

I dont want to destroy the touchies, i think its the uber most annoying build around. XD

The Hand Of Death · Jun 30, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by quanzong

ya I think touch rangers should be nerfed, why use a ranger for 50%+ necromancer skills? That is wrong, if you want to use 50% of a class skills, then be that class at least!

Fast Cast Air Spikers? We should nerf them also because they use more than 50% of another classes skills. Same with that Ranger/Assasin pre-made build.

The Hand Of Death · Jun 30, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

there is no counter to touch skills... only thing you can do is slow them down and speed yourself up.

Slowing them down (water ele, cripple, crippling anguish, immagined burden)

Speeding youself up (dodge, sprint)

Constant Degen (life siphon, conjure phantasm, life transfer)

Diversion (killed many touch rangers with this)

Distracting Shot (if your lucky)

Energy Denial (easiest way to kill them, no energy no vampiric touches)

Constant Conditions (make sure they are not around anyone)

There are many ways to kill a touch ranger, they are not very hard to kill. Mesmers do very well against them so if you are worried about touch rangers bring a mesmer along.

Winx.ZN · Jun 30, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

I dont think they are very useful anywhere but in AB.
Anyway, I think it just makes SENSE that :
To touch/bite/gaze someone you need to see. The picture for "Blind" has a dude with a cover over his eyes, how exactly is he "gazing" me? Last time I tried to eat a burger with my eyes closed it didnt work out too well. If my tank swings a humongous stick at someone and misses 100% of the time then I would guess he cant touch them either.
Either way, dont "nerf", they are only a problem when theres 4 of them really. Just the skill description and logic bugs me.
PS
Even with 4, if they arent smart enough, a smite build with balthazaars aura and zealots fire (most people in AB are worse than the AI, they dun from from AoE) does short work of them.
As a tank I take GB just in case I come up to one of them (or an assassin for that matter).
-ez does it-
: Edit :
Might as well throw my little build here. I made it for touchers, but its fun all round in AB. Works for me. Doesnt stop an army of them, but the they will feel the burn.
Leaves them with a total of -4 energy point regen, -10 health point regen and a loss of 10 energy from the start for a cost of 45 energy in 10 seconds. After that, kite and watch em fall. Someone else in your group can slow them if you like.
MC Hammer (Cant Touch This) N/Me
Wither {E} (-4hpr/-2epr) (10e 2c 10r)
Malaise (-2epr/-2hpr to self) (5e 2c 2r)
Parasitic Bond (-1hpr) (5e 1c 2r) (20 seconds later and you get 129hp, so go around casting on everything you come across!)
Lifesiphon (-2hpr/+2hp to self) (10e 2c 2r) (same here, cast away, while running from shrine to shrine)
Faintheartedness (-3hpr) (10e 1c 8r)
Guilt (steal 10 energy) (5e 2c 30r)
Diversion (no more skill for 38 seconds!) (10e 3c 10r) / Energy Burn (steal 6 and do 60 damage) (10e 3c 10r)
Backfire (98 damage per skill used) (15e 3c 20r)
Attributes :
9 Dom
4 Blood (with minor)
10 Soul Reaping (with minor)
16 Curses (with superior)
Equipment I use : 5^50% HCT Curse (20%) wand craftable outside keineng and Villnars glove (its cheap!) +1 (20%) to Curse and HSR (20%). I guess a 20/20 staff with +5 energy and +1(20%) wrapping is the same thing :P
HF GL ^^

Winstar · Jun 30, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

As mentioned by others they aren't an issue at all in GvG/RA/TA. They can be trouble in AB for your average team which is probably not that well organized. But touchers in groups don't have to be a problem. I once saw a GvG match between 2 highly ranked teams one of which was running a touch team. They got beaten easily by a balanced build. So why in the compressed setting of 4 are they that much more of a problem for another well organzied group of 4?

Imho, Alliance battles aren't really an accurate testing grounds for whether something is overpowered simply because of somewhat random group assignments and bad builds all over the place. If at a higher level of play, a compotent team with a good build doesn't have a chance in the majority of cases against a touch team, then it might deserve nerfing, but thats just not the case. I am certain there are a lot more potent things that could be done in AB's that simply aren't done yet. Over the course of a few games, for fun, some guildmates and I went out with a mini spike team and used TS. We completely rolled every group we hit in less time and with greater ease than any touch team I've ever seen. So if this sort of thing becomes prevelent should rush out and ban an ele spike? NO! Because it can be beaten. We don't need to nerf touchers, people just need to get better, build better, and coordinate better.

Cirian · Jul 01, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

It's a shame Touch Rangers aren't more diverse. They're all vampires really...

Like for instance you can make a R/E Touch Ranger with Shock, Lightning Touch and Glyph of Elemental Power, but it's awful

Long recast, poor damage AND exhaustion? Where do I sign?!

You can even make a R/Mo Touch Ranger with some knockdown signets and smite skills (Holy Strike, Soulstone Strike, Smite etc), throw in the Brambles spirit to add bleeding to every knockdown and maybe Quickening Zephyr to get the smite skills ticking over faster. Maybe put CoP in there just because it's a skill and benefits from Expertise

It has a glimmer of potential, but it's probably best forgotten...